Minutes - Appendix 1 - Transcript

looking to get into the PR public relations or the marketing industry and I came across an internship for black and minority ethnics BAME at the Transport for London TfL press office.. I

Appendix 1

Economy Committee – 20 March 2014 Transcript of Item 5: Internships in London

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Can I again welcome our panel? We have four

interns, or former interns, who have come to join us We have Adam Driscoll, Vishika Patel, Sandeep Dhillon and Rebecca Page Welcome, and thank you very much indeed for coming along and agreeing to give us the benefit of your experiences of being interns in London

This inquiry is looking at the whole nature of internships I think it is an area that, in a sense, not much work has been done on Very little real evidence hasbeen gathered on the way in which internships are being used in London and elsewhere in the UK for that matter

As Chair, I wonder if I could start off inviting our panel of interns to, first of all, tell us about your internship and your experience of internships, and also

education leading up to your internships Could you also tell us a little bit aboutwhat you have done on your internship, the organisation you have interned for and what you have got out of it Adam, can I start with you?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Yes, I studied

Strength and Conditioning Science, which is a subdivision of Sports Science, at

St Mary’s University College, Twickenham I graduated in July 2012 and

immediately started looking for work or internships I had done one part-time during my final year at London Welsh Rugby Club, and subsequently I did a two-week internship at Imperial College, London with Sport Imperial and, most recently, I did an internship over the summer with Brentford Football Club Thelast one was probably the least positive of all and has led me to leaving the sports science industry completely

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Thank you We will come back to some more

detail on that in a minute Vishika?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): I did a degree at Nottingham, Trent, in

fashion management My degree was a four year degree where they strongly believe that during the third year you should do an internship or a placement inthe industry I luckily got an internship with ASOS and then, after my

internship and graduating, they offered me a job at the end of my degree and I

am now currently working there During my internship I worked in the buying department of women’s wear, where I worked as a Buying Assistant (BA) and got responsibilities like all the other BAs would have got I gained a lot of

experience about the industry and a lot of knowledge about it as well

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I studied English

literature at Loughborough University in 2008 I graduated and I went on to do

a postgraduate degree in Marketing and Management at Loughborough again

I finished there in September 2009 and then I was looking for work I was

looking to get into the PR (public relations) or the marketing industry and I came across an internship for black and minority ethnics (BAME) at the

Transport for London (TfL) press office I applied for that and was successful in getting into that internship I enjoyed my time there It was a nine-month internship and I got a real insight into the workings of a very busy press office

I was given my own campaign to run during my time there and I assisted in helping out with a variety of different campaigns while I was there

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Was that your first internship?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): Yes, that was the

first one Prior to that, when I was still at university, I did a six or eight week internship for Man Investments That was in business continuity, but that was more about just trying to get an experience of working in an office-based

environment There were a couple of areas I was looking to go into after

graduation so it was more to get work experience

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Thank you Rebecca?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): I finished my Masters in Environmental

Science and Management in September 2012 At the time I could not afford to

do an unpaid internship so I was looking for paid internships and was

unsuccessful I ended up getting a part-time job for nine months in retail I saved up and then I did a three month internship for a charity which was

unpaid Then I did three months in Team London here, in marketing and

communications, and now I am in my third internship for the Environment Unit

in Research and Analysis

Gareth Bacon AM: Why did you choose to take up an internship and how did

you find it? One of the questions that we have is how people become aware of internships, so where did you find them?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): There were a

variety of websites I looked on, primarily the UK Sport and the United Kingdom Strength and Conditioning Association’s (UKSCA) website At the time there were lots of internships on both those websites and occasionally I would also bemade aware of them by my former lecturers I chose to do internship because

it is such a competitive industry in sports science, there are so many people trying to get into the industry at the moment, experience is what sets you apart Once you have qualifications on paper it is really the experience that sets you apart, and that is the one thing they always ask for

Gareth Bacon AM: Therefore, it is to differentiate your CV from other

applicants for similar types of jobs?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Yes.

Gareth Bacon AM: I am going to come back to you in a minute because I am

intrigued as to why you found Brentford so awful, but we will come back to that Vishika?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Through my university I had a lot of support

for internships and placements As a university they did fairs where ASOS had

a stall and you could go and talk to the companies and ask more about those internships and placements Then for my core specifically, ASOS came in and did a talk about the internships available and the different types that we could apply for and mostly it is exactly the same The reason I did an internship was for the experience and to know what the career you want to go into was all about, because you could go into something and not know if it is right for you

or not, and because it is really competitive it is all about the type of experienceyou have

Gareth Bacon AM: For you it was a bridge between studying and working,

but it was also the opportunity for you to find out more about the industry you were going to hopefully go to work in, before taking the plunge?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Yes It really helped with your fourth year

Obviously at university it is a lot of books and studying in that sense but your placement year puts everything into perspective of how the industry actually works When I did my dissertation I did it about ASOS because I knew a lot about the industry and the company itself, which helped me with my degree aswell It made me realise that is what I wanted to do as a career

Gareth Bacon AM: A positive experience from your perspective?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Yes.

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): For me, my

internship at TfL, I was not looking for an internship at the time I had just graduated so I was looking for fulltime employment That was back in 2009 and it was quite hard to get work I saw an internship as a stepping stone to get some experience so that, when I would go to apply for jobs after the

internship, I would have more experiences to talk about and might stand a better chance of getting fulltime employment

Gareth Bacon AM: Again, it was a differentiator on your CV for getting a

permanent job You were at TfL nine months I think you said What are you doing now?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I am still at TfL now Gareth Bacon AM: You are still at TfL, working permanently?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): Yes, when I came to

the end of my internship there were a couple of full-time vacancies that came

up in the press office that I was encouraged to apply for I went through the

full recruitment process and was fortunate enough to become a full-time

member of staff

Gareth Bacon AM: OK, so similar to Vishika then it paved the way forward for

you into full-time work?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): It did, yes.

Gareth Bacon AM: Rebecca?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Similar to everyone else, it was to get the

experience What I found when applying for jobs and even paid internships is that I did not have the experience Even though I had done volunteer work andhad qualifications, up against other candidates, they had a lot more experience

so it was for that reason It was for networking as well All the internships I have done at the moment have helped by getting into events and doing

networking

Gareth Bacon AM: Similar to Sandeep, I suppose, has that led you to fulltime

work or are you still interning now?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): No, I am still interning at the moment.

Gareth Bacon AM: You are in your third internship now, so how long

collectively have you been interning for?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): It will be nine months at the end of April that

I have done interning

Gareth Bacon AM: For yourself and Sandeep it seems that you became

aware of internships under your own steam, so you investigated things and looked at the market and found it Whereas it seems that, Adam and Vishika, you were given advice and pointed in the direction of internships Is that fair tosay?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Yes.

Gareth Bacon AM: For Adam and Vishika, were you given good advice about

which internships to apply for or was it simply, “You can go and look at this” and then leave it to you?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): My core specifically helped to look at,

firstly, CVs and cover letters They helped guide you on how to apply for

internships We had different fairs for placement years in all different

industries, and we also had the companies coming in to talk to us Through that information you knew exactly what a good internship was, and through lecturers and with peers, you knew exactly what you wanted to do It was guided quite a lot but with all the advice given you knew exactly which

internship you wanted to go for

Gareth Bacon AM: What was your experience, Adam?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Initially it was

pointers to say, “These are the kind of places you look” The ones that I was notified of by former lecturers or other former graduates tended to be of higherquality The one thing that I had learnt and picked up on - as I think several people in my position on the same course as me did - was that they are

different kinds of internships Some of them are known almost as ‘stand in the corner’ or ‘mop and bucket’ internships The UKSCA launched a position

statement on this, that an internship should be a reciprocal thing They

develop you as a coach as well as providing a service at the club

Unfortunately, from an advert and an interview it is sometimes difficult to gauge to what extent clubs will offer this At Brentford it definitely appeared that you would have to wait until later in the season I started my internship atthe beginning of the pre-season and I left just as the season was starting

because I was running out of money They kept saying, “You have to wait Youhave to become more familiar with the players” They definitely wanted to ease you into it but at a very slow rate I do not know how that compares to different internships My Imperial College London internship was two weeks long and they had us in for two days, the Thursday and Friday prior to the beginning of it, and took us through the kind of stuff they wanted to do, so theydid a training segment On day one of the actual internship we could be

thrown in at the deep end and that was probably the best internship I had

Gareth Bacon AM: OK I think my colleague is going to be pitching in and

asking about the detail of your internships I do not want to queer your pitch, Andrew I am done now, Chairman

Andrew Dismore AM: There are quite a number of issues that have come

out of Adam, in particular You obviously found it a rather negative experience

by the end of it, in that you are leaving the industry in which you presumably thought you were going to have a career, if you had been able to do it What sort of things were you doing and did you find any of the training useful?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Do you mean

particularly Brentford?

Andrew Dismore AM: Well, generally.

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): On all of them

there was a certain element of coaching At London Welsh I would be helping

in the gym because there were up to 16 players in there at a time and only onecoach He does not have eyes in the back of the head, so we would be

coaching the players through some of the lists As professional players they know what they are doing so they do not need too much advice

At Imperial College London we were assisting with sessions, so it was getting a chance to practise the core skills of a coach At Brentford, well, I arrived at

about 7.50am each morning I was there My first task was to put out bread, jam and cereals in a certain order or the ‘gaffer’ - as the manager is universallycalled at football clubs - would notice Then I would clean the gym During the sessions I would be timekeeper, water boy, ball boy and I would also collect physiological monitoring data, which sounds very good and it is something that

I would need to become more familiar with In practice, I was asking players torate on a scale of one to seven how hard they found the session; one being justcompletely relaxed and lying on the sofa at home and seven being if the

session had been five minutes longer they could not have finished

Another bit of physiological monitoring data I did was hydration analysis

through urine samples It often felt like it was the jobs that, if the coaches themselves arrived there a little bit earlier or they tried to streamline the other things they were doing a little bit more efficiently, they would have had time to

do themselves They are not always the most pleasant of tasks, so it was morethat they wanted someone who could do those tasks for them and occasionally they would give the opportunity to coach One of the best opportunities

Brentford gave was to work for their under-16s - their Milk Cup squad - where I would get the chance to lead part of the session, but with three interns and only two of those sessions a week you would be doing it once a fortnight ratherthan every day

Andrew Dismore AM: Were you being paid by any of these?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): No I did not

get paid at any of these

Andrew Dismore AM: You do not think it was a particularly useful experience

overall for you or was it?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): The point

where I snapped at Brentford, I was working in a pub as well at the time, time on the weekends I realised I was cleaning, I was making drinks and, just generally keeping an eye on things I was doing the same thing at the pub as I was doing at Brentford The difference was I was getting the minimum wage atthe pub so it did not make sense

part-Andrew Dismore AM: What would your advice be to people who are thinking

about an internship?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Be

exceptionally careful Unless it is an exceptional opportunity do not go for an unpaid one, unless it is a good opportunity Even if it is a paid opportunity, I would still be careful There are some which, even if they are unpaid, I think are too good to miss I applied a couple of times for internships at the World Cycling Centre in Switzerland They had applicants from all over Europe I did not get either of the ones I applied for It was a very small allowance they gave you for food and housing, but I think that would have been too good an opportunity to miss If something like that comes up, by all means apply for it

The standard unpaid internship that is often seen at sports clubs; do not go for them.

Andrew Dismore AM: Do you see a trade-off between being paid and not

being paid depending on what the internship is?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Yes, if it is not

to be missed and so valuable to your CV then you might just have to grin and bear it, but otherwise you need to pay for rent, you need to pay for food, you need to pay to get to wherever this is every day

Andrew Dismore AM: What are you doing now?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): I have just

retrained as a bicycle mechanic and I have started a job at Richmond Station

Andrew Dismore AM: OK Vishika, similar questions to you You have told

us quite a bit as well and you have already told us you find it a pretty useful thing to do and some of the things you were doing I think you have said it is going to be a useful experience for your career because you are now working That is all correct, is it?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Yes, definitely When I did an internship

there [ASOS] you are given the responsibility, like any other employee I joinedthe skirts department and you get training on all the systems You start from fresh as if you were a new employee entering the business You get given responsibility I was given my own projects I got involved in areas that I coulddevelop more so I knew exactly what were my weaknesses, what were my strengths, so they would help me work on those areas

Obviously, as an intern it is a bit daunting going into a big industry You would have meetings every month where all the interns would get together and you all talk about how you are getting on It is all about learning within that year andw would also have talks from other departments For example, even

though I was in buying we would have a talk from marketing, so I would get to know a bit more about what other departments are like and whether that was maybe something I would want to experience after Yes, I really enjoyed my internship I felt that I gained a lot of experience out of it and I understood the industry much more, which helped me with my degree It made me want to work for them after as well

Andrew Dismore AM: Were you paid?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Yes, I was paid That was one of the most

important things as well because obviously London is so expensive Being paidhelped me pay for rent and also be able to enjoy my experience as well

Andrew Dismore AM: If you had not been paid would you have been able to

do it?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): With the help of my parents I probably

would be able to do it, but without that I would not have been able to do it Previously, a few summers ago before I did my degree, I did a six week

internship with Marks & Spencer (M&S) The only thing that was paid was my travel, but that was only because my mum and dad could help me in terms of living with my aunty In my internship year it was really important that it was paid

Andrew Dismore AM: What advice would you give to people looking for

internships?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): Firstly I would say do not give up I applied

for a lot of different things and I know a lot of my friends applied for different internships and were rejected I do think it is really helpful I think it makes you realise what you want to do for a career Yes, I would say to keep

applying, but then I think it would be the paid ones because in London it is really hard to do an unpaid internship with the price of everything else

Andrew Dismore AM: Sandeep, some questions for you You have already

told us that you found it a valuable experience and now you are working where you were interning What sort of things do they have you doing?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): When I first started

it was about having an induction into the organisation, so to understand what the organisation does as a whole and how it fits in within the Greater London Authority (GLA) For the first few months I was shadowing other press officers

It gave me a good idea as to what the office does as a whole There are a lot ofdifferent areas within the press office and I was based on the campaigns desk

We have an operational side of the press office,they look after Tube queries, police, cycling queries, roads and streets, that kind of thing Therefore, I

received quite a broad understanding as to what the other press officers do and what kind of work they do

Within that two or three months I was given my own campaign to run, which was all about getting people to cycle more, the London Cycle Challenge

Obviously I was reporting to a line manager, but it was up to me to decide how the campaign should be run and how we would go about increasing the number

of people who would get involved in the London cycle challenge It was down

to me to work out what was the best way and what PR methods should be used

to achieve that goal, and the whole experience was very good

I was treated like any other employee in the office as well I was given the opportunity to do what everybody else did I had regular meetings with my director to give feedback on how I was finding the scheme and that kind of thing; so it was a very positive experience overall

Andrew Dismore AM: Were you paid?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): Yes, I was paid.

Andrew Dismore AM: Would you have been able to do it if you were not?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): Probably not, no

That was quite a draw when I saw the advertisement for the internship It said there would be a bursary that would come with the internship, although it did not go into specific details I was paid a monthly salary but if I had not been getting that I would not have been able to do it I would have had to rely on

my parents I had moved down from the northwest to London to do the

internship They are self-employed but back in 2009 obviously business was quite hard

Andrew Dismore AM: If you had not been paid you would not have been

able to do it What would you have done instead?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I would have carried

on looking for other internships but probably more than likely things that were local, back in the northwest I would have been able to live at home more thanlikely and travel to internships that were not too far away

Andrew Dismore AM: What advice would you give to anyone looking for an

internship?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I would recommend

it It gave me such valuable experience I feel that if I did not get a job at TfL after that I would have been in a much better position than I was beforehand to

be able to get employment elsewhere I think it is probably dependent on the organisation When you are applying you do not know what the organisation is going to be like when you join My experience at TfL, for example, was that it was very well structured and I was given lots of work to do and very much felt like a member of the press office like everybody else

Andrew Dismore AM: Rebecca, I have similar questions to ask you What

sort of things have you been doing?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): In my first internship with the charity I was a

communications intern, so I worked with the press and social media That meant I did a lot of networking Looking back on it and comparing it to the internships I have done at GLA, it was definitely more of a volunteer role I did not have that much responsibility, it was just supporting the staff that were there

With Team London again it was paid, unlike the Environment Unit I worked in marketing and communications Again, a really good experience and

networking During my volunteer work and the unpaid internship, I gained more responsibility in project management skills That then led into the

internship I have now, which is in research and analysis It is more

independent work than working in a team and I am gaining project

management skills there

Andrew Dismore AM: When your internship finishes what are you going to

do? Are you going to get another internship if you cannot get anything else?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Yes, if there is nothing else about I have

been asked to stay on as an intern past April but it will be nine months so, preferably, I would like a permanent job where I can progress I do recommenddoing an internship Personally I am against doing unpaid internships for the private sector, but I think charities are slightly different You do have to look at

it I know that some volunteering internships are 12 months long and they ask for you to give in a notice With the one I have I do not have to givenotice I could leave at any point They were completely understanding when I had interviews and if I did get a job I could just up and leave That is the point of volunteering and that is the advantage of doing a volunteer internship but, yes,

I would never go back and do an unpaid one There is no way I could afford it

Andrew Dismore AM: Going back to when you did do the unpaid one, why

did you take that unpaid one at the time?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): By that point I had been working in retail for

nine months I had applied for all sorts of entry level jobs as well as paid

internships What I found was that I was up against not only graduates at my level, but also people who had had a lot more experience For example, peoplewho had 20 years’ experience and had just been made redundant were going for my level jobs They were overqualified I was getting feedback from

interviews that they were the ones that were getting the jobs They were overqualified, so I had to get experience and do networking That is why I did the charity internship because I felt, “This is the route I want to go down I have to do it otherwise I am not going to get out of retail”

Andrew Dismore AM: What advice would you give to other people who are

thinking about doing interning?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): They definitely need to look around I do

not think they are advertised that greatly, especially the paid ones Definitely look around and see what you are going to get out of it If you do get an

interview, do ask questions and see what you are going to get out of it,

especially if it is unpaid You are taking a risk, especially if you are going out of

a paid job to do this internship You have to ask those questions about what you are going to get out of it

Andrew Dismore AM: I think you all found your various internships by your

own merits When you were doing your interview did you find other people who had got their internships through what used to be called - and probably still is - ‘the old boys’ network’, who you knew rather than any other way?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): A little bit I

did an interview at Bath Rugby and a couple of the guys there doing the

interview, in the last five, were rugby players It was, “Where do you play?” “I have played at such-and-such a club.” “Oh, do you know this guy?” “Yes, he is

a coach there.” “Yes, I used to play with him.” Therefore, while the

interviewer is not necessarily going out to then employ that person, in the back

of their head they have an idea that this might be their type of person I found that in football clubs especially There is a football person who fits in better with a football organisation, and the same with rugby clubs because they have their own subcultures

My sports background was in fact track and field, so I did not fit into either of those I had played a bit of rugby, so I certainly felt more comfortable in that rugby sport culture because I had had more experience of it While the old boys’ network does not necessarily get you a job, certainly, my last interview for a sports-related position was one where I was tipped off by a former

lecturer, rather than saw it advertised, so you could call that ‘the old boys’ network’

Andrew Dismore AM: Has anybody else had experience of the old boys’

network?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): No.

Gareth Bacon AM: Building on Andrew’s last question, rather than ‘old boys’

network’ - which sounds a bit pejorative - networking, which I think is the

phrase Rebecca has used frequently, is possibly a slightly more impartial way

of putting it What I am interested in is whether or not, when you are looking

at the internships, Vishika, it sounded like you were very much guided directly towards the one you have Rebecca and Sandeep, you seem to have found them under your own steam and applied for them Adam, you were also

pointed in the direction of a couple of yours Is there any way that you can go

to reference, before you accept one of these internships, whether the

internship is what it says on the tin, some kind of kitemark about whether this

is a good internship and you will get what you should get out of it? Have you encountered that anywhere in terms of your job searching on interns?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Intern adviser?

Gareth Bacon AM: Yes, something like that Something that gives you some

kind of indication that if you take a job at Brentford Football Club you will get experience of this, that and the other?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Unless you go

and track down a former intern, or you know of someone who interned at that club and then went on to do something else in the industry at high level, then,

no, not really

Gareth Bacon AM: It would simply be that the only way to verify that this is

what it seems to be

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Ask more

questions at the interview

Gareth Bacon AM: is simply to develop your own network.

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Yes.

Gareth Bacon AM: Would it have been valuable for you, and for the others, if

there was some kind of central registry that provided, say, kitemarks that said,

“Interns in these organisations will get - whatever they should be getting - some sort of quality check”? Would that have avoided your experience at Brentford I suppose?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Possibly, yes Gareth Bacon AM: The other three?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): With me the way the

internship job advert was set out it was clear what you would be expected to

do It was a verification for anyone that, “This does happen” Then, because I was applying for jobs anyway that were not internships, I think generally when you apply for a job you never know if what is being set out in the advert is actually what you will be doing There is always that element of whether it is

an internship or not, but I felt very confident both in what the job advert said and going through the interview I was fairly confident that I would be doing what was set out

Gareth Bacon AM: The point you make is a good one in that no job is

necessarily what you are told it is going to be I have encountered a lot of people who have taken jobs and said, “I was mis-sold this It is not what I was interviewed for and now I am doing something I really hate” The point about internships specifically is that because large numbers of interns are unpaid, there is greater scope for that to be somehow exploited Other Members will probably come out of the session today looking at ways to avoid exploitation ofpeople so it can be mutually rewarding for both the employer and the intern Itsounds like you have been quite fortunate Obviously, as now an employee of TfL, I am very pleased to hear that you are pleased with your experience there

It would be concerning if you were not

For the others, any kind of guidance, whether it be a Government registration system or something like that, where internships have to be registered and assessed before they are offered to interns; would that be beneficial for you? Rebecca, you might be best placed to answer that

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Definitely I know that on the Team London

website they advertise volunteer internships They are very careful in the ones

that they do advertise to make clear to the organisations that they are a

charity and that the volunteer can leave at any time I think for quite a lot, even within charities, they ask for a four week notice period That is not a volunteer opportunity then I know Team London are quite good with that Again, I have had internships where it has not been the same as it has been advertised and there is nothing you can do about it, and it does change over time Both of my internships at GLA did adapt a little bit but that was up to me because they wanted me to get the most out of it, which I think is good Then again, I suppose for other organisations that come at it the other way, it would

be good to have them assessed and the length of time as well should be lookedat

Gareth Bacon AM: On the question of notice, have you worked in an

internship where you were required to give a certain amount of notice before you left?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): No, but I know people who have had to do

that and even when they advertise some large charities do say, “You have to give four weeks’ notice”

Gareth Bacon AM: Is that done on a contractual basis?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Yes.

Gareth Bacon AM: It is, so you sign a contract?

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Yes.

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): On this issue of rating your internship, I am

aware that there are some websites available, for instance, MyPlacement.com where you can give feedback and look for feedback on placements and

internships Have any of you ever used that or similar websites?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): ASOS do their own internship page where I

know, from hearing of people at my university now that are looking to do an internship, they look at this page and there is “A day in the life of” There are different areas that you can get internships on, in buying, merchandising and garment tech For instance, in buying, I did “A day in the life of” When internsapply for an internship they want to know what the job is about from a person who has experienced it, so they can read it on the website themselves and understand the responsibilities you would have As well, obviously when they came to our university to do a talk they would talk about the types of

responsibilities

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): That is obviously helpful but it is not an

independent rating system, independent from the employer I want to ask whether you have ever used it or come across it, clearly it does not have

widespread reach Jenny, you want to come in

Jenny Jones AM: For those who have paid internships, I am interested in the

level of pay I am assuming for Rebecca and Sandeep, you have the London Living Wage (LLW)? Yes?

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I was paid a monthly

salary I received about £15,000 I think it was

Jenny Jones AM: All right, because it was a special internship for BAMEs? Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): Yes, it was.

Jenny Jones AM: It was a special deal but you get the London Living Wage,

yes

Rebecca Page (intern at GLA): Yes.

Jenny Jones AM: Good That was the only right answer, really Vishika, you

said you worked for M&S and they did not pay at all?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): No It was a six week internship and all

they did was pay for all your travel You would have money on a card for the canteen, but you were not paid for those six weeks

Jenny Jones AM: What did the canteen give you?

Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): I think it was £5 a day and you could go in

and get your breakfast or your lunch, or something like that

Jenny Jones AM: Like a luncheon voucher It does strike me, Chair, that we

should be sending our report to various organisations that come up as payers It is a pity we do not have M&S here today When you were at ASOS what did they pay you? Was it the minimum wage or the London Living Wage?

non-Vishika Patel (intern at ASOS): I cannot remember off the top of my head

the overall salary, but it was the same as you [Vishika] I am from the north as well, so it was important to come down and be able to afford rent and transportand living in London It was the same as you

Jenny Jones AM: Right Thank you Generally to your knowledge - you may

not know - are internships at the London Living Wage if they are here in

London? Do you know at all?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): As far as I am

aware, almost all the internships I have seen within sport are unpaid

Sometimes they will offer expenses and they will say it is limited to £5,000 or

£8,000 a year or £1,000 a month in exceptionally rare cases, but generally not paid

Jenny Jones AM: No Thank you.

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Are there any other points that you feel that we

have not asked about that we ought to ask about? Anything that you would like to tell us about your experiences?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): Yes Some

internships will always ask for an undergraduate sports science or equivalent degree They will say a Masters is preferable They usually ask, if they are in strength conditioning, that you have UKSA accreditation, which I have and I didoff my own back I had to travel to the Isle of Man in order to do that If you donot have that, the ability to do it within six months and then experience on top

of that Certainly the undergraduate degree at least, I would say is essential

My Brentford internship was one that preferred you to have the UKSA

accreditation, but of the four members of sports science staff who were my direct superiors, in terms of being strength conditioning staff as well as sports science staff, at least three of them were not UKSA accredited

The Bromley Tennis Academy - which is just outside London and I guess they are not in your remit - wanted an intern That would have been paid and it would have paid a living wage, but the guy that I would have been reporting to was an associate member He had not passed his accreditation assessment, sotechnically I would have been more qualified than the people I would have been reporting to

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): You were being asked to work unpaid for

people who were less qualified than you were?

Adam Driscoll (former intern in sports science industry): On paper, yes.

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Is that an experience that anyone else has

had? Obviously people you are working for have more experience than you butperhaps they did not have the same academic qualifications

Sandeep Dhillon (former intern at TfL press office): I did not find that

While I was working in the press office we were given all the same

opportunities to go on courses, both internally and externally, if you were an intern or not You were given the opportunity to do Chartered Institute of

Public Relations (CIPR) accredited courses and that kind of thing I had CIPR accreditation as well, so it was very much a level playing field for me in that sense

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Can I thank the four of you very much indeed

for coming along and sharing your experiences, some good and some not so good

At this point I had better turn and welcome our new panel We have a mixture

of representatives of interns and young people, students, and representatives

of the personnel and development sector, and from Human Resources (HR) We

also have some employers, including some employers of the interns we have just been talking to and are from the GLA as well.

Can I start off by asking how an internship differs from an apprenticeship or a work experience placement?

Mark Kleinman (Assistant Director, Economic and Business Policy, GLA): You have heard a little bit about the GLA and also the TfL scheme, so

internally we are very clear that internships are paid They are paid at the London Living Wage They are part of an overall strategy for recruitment and workforce development, so - and I ought to stress I am talking as the head of Economic and Business Policy rather than head of HR - we certainly see the GLA as an exemplar employer in that way

I think the definition of an internship is pretty grey at the edges I think just from the four experiences you have heard here, not just in terms of the quality but that it can be anything from between one to two weeks, up to six months

or even longer I think as a general, good business principle, one would look at the length of time as being relevant as well, so expressing a personal view

If somebody is spending a week getting some work experience it may be fair enough that they just get paid their travel and lunches If they are spending three or six months, and in effect performing a role for the organisation, then that is a very different scenario

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): At what point does an internship - especially a

paid internship - tip into effectively a paid job? We have heard that one of the GLA’s interns has been doing nine months and has been offered an extension What kind of length would you normally see internships lasting as opposed to

an apprenticeship scheme or something else?

Mark Kleinman (Assistant Director, Economic and Business Policy, GLA): Yes, I think you would be thinking in terms of around six to nine months,

but there may be variations in that Certainly, within the GLA, we are very clear that interns are not there to fill established positions They perform a different role within the structure

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): That is very helpful Victoria, you are from TfL?

Victoria Harrison-Cook (Chief Press Officer, Campaigns and Strategy, TfL): Yes, that is right.

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Sandeep was very happy with his internship

experience

Victoria Harrison-Cook (Chief Press Officer, Campaigns and Strategy, TfL): Yes.

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): What is TfL’s position on interns and what role

they fulfil in the organisation?

Victoria Harrison-Cook (Chief Press Officer, Campaigns and Strategy, TfL): In the TfL press office we have a BAME internship scheme that has been

running since 2007 It was set up because the CIPR identified that people from BAME communities are severely underrepresented in PR We also identified at the time that they were severely underrepresented in our own press office, so

we set up the scheme as a practical step to give people from those

communities the opportunity to do the training that they needed in order to be able to get a job in the industry

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Good In terms of length of time, what sort of

length of time are your internships?

Victoria Harrison-Cook (Chief Press Officer, Campaigns and Strategy, TfL): The scheme started off as a six month internship We set out practical

steps, benchmarking what we wanted them to achieve over that time period What we were finding is that they needed a bit of extra time to fully develop,

so we extended it to nine months for the last couple They wanted to see the projects they had been working on through, and they have been with us for 11 months

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Thank you Can I move on to Jo Moxon from

ASOS, Head of Talent You obviously have one young talented advocate here

Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): A great advocate.

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Can you tell us, what role do you see interns

fulfilling in your organisation as opposed to an apprenticeship or from graduatetraining?

Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): It is very similar to Mark’s [Kleinman]

experience We have multiple entry points into ASOS apprenticeship schemes and various other schemes Interns are able to help us build our talent pipelineand some of the skill gaps that we have around garment technology, buying merchandising, etc They are structured, paid schemes, usually 9 to 12

months, very much with a view that should an opportunity arise at the end of the internship once they are qualified then - as in Vishika’s experience - they will come back to us

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Vishika was on a structured sandwich course,

in a sense, and so her internship formed part of her degree Are most of the interns that you take of that nature or are they a lot more informal?

Jo Moxon (Head of Talent, ASOS): Yes, again, very similar to Mark’s

experience We have different things Interns for us usually form a sandwich place We do have work shadowing as well, which is shorter in time and that will be unpaid if it is purely that someone wants to come and get some work

experience They are quite short in nature Internships are in the main part of the sandwich programme.

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Thank you Katerina, you represent the

Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development What role do you see

guidance to our members, who would all be HR professionals, how to set up these schemes I think for us, the difference in terms of work experience

placement is pay and duration

The purpose of work experience would be the discovery of the working world,

so the emphasis is very much on the experience, on the learning bit It is muchshorter than an internship Quite often it is a younger core, so you do it when you are at school, although in some cases you also have people who are

unemployed, or those who want to change from sectors However, internships are of longer duration and you get a clear set of tasks, a plan, as we have heard from some of the panellists here and it should be paid

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Therefore, predominantly graduates,

predominantly paid roles?

Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): Yes We say to our members

that they must pay to comply with minimum legislation I was quite surprised

to hear that there are unpaid ones, but I guess we focus on those We have surveyed our members to find out what is going on and only 1% said they do not pay their interns, so 60% said they either pay the minimum wage or above and 25% who did not know, but the majority of internship placements are paid

We are very firm on that We are saying, “You have to pay” not just for social mobility reasons but also as an employer As you have seen with this great example from ASOS, if you do pay them then you invest in it much more and you then get higher returns, productivity is higher, so it is good from the

employer’s perspective as well

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): How long is a typical internship?

Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): It is a few months, up to a year

maybe, yes

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Between three months and a year type of

Those employers that are doing it well are investing a lot of time in it You can see there are good examples, like ASOS Jo and I have just met so I am not in any way promoting ASOS here but it sounds like they are following some of ourbest practice guides that we have produced, which I am happy to share with the Committee

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): That would be very helpful.

Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): Our guides also formed the

basis for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills’ (BIS) common best practice guide that the Government produced on this, so there is a lot of guidance on this In terms of kitemarking, we do not police employers, but we recommend that they use our guides and I think that is a good way of seeing whether it is of high quality

One issue as well is the internship has to have the purpose of leading to

employment In many cases the employer might not be able to provide

employment In that case they should really help the young person at the end:provide them with feedback; provide them with a recommendation letter; do some mock interviews and help them with networking One of the key things

in terms of an internship, is it gives you that access to networks, which again

we have heard that young people do not have; so it is helping them with that stepping stone

To the point on recruitment, 85% of the people we have surveyed said that they always or sometimes recruit somebody from their scheme For

employers, it is a good way to tap into a wider talent pool and bring different people into the organisations and it is - as we have heard from the employers here - a way to boost your talent pipelines and is another recruitment channel

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Can you tell me if there are particular sectors

of the economy where the use of interns is more predominant? Indeed, is there a difference between big organisations and small organisations in terms

of their use of interns?

Katerina Rudiger (Head of Skills and Policy Campaigns, Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development): We have not really asked about

sectors so I would have to speculate I think we all know the media sector, those sectors that a lot of young people want to work in In terms of large versus small employers, I think what we know is that large employers are still abit better in terms of bringing in young people, just because they have the resources to do so

When you look at Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) and why they are engaged with young people, it is quite often for the right reasons, it is really growing their own talent Many young people want to work for big employers, the M&S, the HSBC, PwC when they are at university, but small companies are providing good opportunities for young people because they can get a more rounded experience as well It is a bit of a two-way street in a way We need

to promote those opportunities to young people as well

Educating young people is a really important point, so we have produced a guide - although not normally our audience - for young people We ask our members all the time what they expect of young people and how they recruit

We thought why not tell the young people themselves, so we produced a guide

We also have a mentoring scheme where we match HR professionals with young job seekers to educate them about recruitment processes

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Thank you very much I am sure we would

appreciate having copies of all of that to inform our report Thank you very much

Colum, the National Union of Students’ (NUS) view on internships and what rolethey play Does NUS have a view on whether they are a positive thing or an exploitative thing?

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

I think there are two important differences when we are considering

internships, and that is whether it is taken on as part of study or whether it is done outside of study, which might be during the summer holidays, during term time or in the graduate market It is certainly the latter which is the

biggest concern to us Talking about definitions of internships, there are some key things that we think are important in terms of the identity of an internship, the first of which is pay and whether it is paid or unpaid The second of which

is time, how much time you are being recruited for to do that internship

Experience, we think that it should be something that gives you some personal development Then finally about progression, it should give you some kind of opportunity to progress, either in the organisation that you are in or elsewhere

internship to get into them They were media, finance, fashion and politics

We found that was an interesting thing for us to look at

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): That is very interesting I think the research

that you refer to would be very interesting for us to see if you are able to share

it with us

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

Yes

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Good Could I turn finally to Ben, Co-Director of

Intern Aware? You are the representative group for interns Can I ask you, in your view, what should an internship involve and how should it differ from an apprenticeship or work experience placement?

Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): I think the point that Katerina was

making is something that we would echo, in that internships are a short period

of on-the-job work, that potentially leads to fulltime employment Work

experience tends to be shorter and apprenticeships are slightly different, in that they are formalised programmes that are done in co-operation with the Government and have a set legal definition This is one of the problems, that there are no legal definitions for internships or for work experience The only relevant criteria, as far as employment law is concerned, is worker, volunteer, voluntary worker and employee What we are saying is that the law can be tightened up and also clarified by defining in law what work experience is, and

we have been working with employment lawyers to try to do this You can create what we call a four-week rule, that will say work experience up to four weeks, and at the four week point, work experience would automatically be defined as work under employment law and so be entitled to pay We think thiswould help to clarify the situation for both young people and for employers, while also allowing short-term unpaid work experience to continue potentially but stopping longer term, exploitative unpaid work

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): That is very interesting, and we heard Colum

just now that there are four key sectors of the economy where internships are used most –predominantly

Tony Arbour AM: Is politics a key sector in the economy?

Jenny Jones AM: Of course, who decides where the money goes?

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Let me rephrase that There are four sectors

where internships are used most predominantly: media; politics; fashion; and finance They are four areas that are very popular for young people to go into Would you concur with that, in terms of your evidence, that those are the

sectors where you are most likely to see internships?

Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): We would agree that they are

definitely sectors where unpaid internships and internships are prevalent

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Unpaid internships are prevalent?

Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): Finance not so much actually, but

where internships are prevalent in all those sectors From our experience internships occur across all professions, so everything from engineering to fashion to marketing to PR There has been a real shift - particularly since the economic downturn - of internships becoming something that are essential to getting fulltime work for people who are looking to enter professional career paths This was something that was identified by Alan Milburn [former Minister for the Cabinet Office] in his report into fair access into professions We are seeing it right across the economy

What is encouraging is that we have been working with a lot of employer

bodies to try to change internships so that they are fair, paid internships,

because this is something where unpaid internships do not just disadvantage young people who cannot afford to work for free for months on end There are

a lot of industries that are going to be closing themselves off to a lot of real talent if they are not paying We have been working with the likes of the PublicRelations Consultants Association (PRCA), representing the PR industry, the

Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA), which represent architecture It has

a new policy of kicking out members who use unpaid internships because they think it is so damaging There is also a policy from the Arts Council, for

example, where they tie paying interns to grant funding now

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): We are going to move on to questions

specifically about pay shortly, so we will come back to that Can I just finally ask you, what are the most common complaints that you hear from unhappy interns? We have heard one unhappy experience, but is that typical in terms

of the type and nature of things they are being asked to do, or are most of the complaints about pay?

Ben Lyons (Co-Director, Intern Aware): It does not make sense to

distinguish between pay and bad experience because we see such a correlationbetween low quality internships and unpaid internships The complaints vary from people having to do work where they are just not gaining any skills One London gallery, for example, where people were being trained to become

gallery curators They were just cleaning the toilets in the gallery and clearly not learning valuable skills for gallery curators There was information about HSBC having a ‘sons and daughters only’ policy for one of their internship schemes of senior executives There were companies re-categorising work that used to be paid, basically getting rid of, for example, receptionists and

replacing them with a rolling programme of unpaid interns, so not gaining practical skills that are going to lead to employment necessarily in those

industries

One thing that we have not touched on necessarily, and one of these cases of real abuse and of lack of skills is that, where there is lack of pay, there are issues in terms of parents being really affected It is not just young people

themselves who are shouldering debt or simply not being able to do it, but there are parents who are having to sometimes re-mortgage houses and get themselves into a lot of financial adversity to support their kids getting into work.

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Thank you very much.

Andrew Dismore AM: I just wanted to probe this definition of intern It

seems to me a relatively recent phenomenon as a word that has crept in in the past ten years or so

Tom Copley AM: It is older than that.

Andrew Dismore AM: It is an Americanism, I think I have three different

experiences of using what might now be called interns or not interns When I was in legal practise, we would take on second- and third-year law students and they would be paid with a view to them getting training and contracts if they were any good That would probably now be called an internship They were just legal assistants in those days They were not seen as interns at all When I was running a consultancy, when I was out of office I took on what would now be seen as an intern in the definitions that you are using

When I was an MP, it was rather different because the people who were

working for me as interns in your definition were not interns They were seen

as volunteers who would come and go as they pleased They were paid

expenses Their big advantage in taking them on and what Adam [Driscoll] had

to say, was that would get into the ‘Westminster village’ and they would get security clearance and that gave them a really good opportunity of getting a job in politics that was paid Everybody I took on, on a paid basis, had been an intern for me or somebody else Most of my interns - I think all of them -

gained a job in the end working for somebody else on a fully paid basis To my mind, they were not interns on this definition They were volunteers They could come and go as they pleased However, if I called them volunteers, they would not like to work under that definition They wanted to be called interns, even though they were not under your definition, because it had that cache to

it in terms of trying to get a job within the politics industry, if it is an industry

I am just picking up on what Adam [Driscoll] had to say, which was that there are some jobs that are too good to miss in internship/volunteering, even if theyare not paid The reason they are not paid in Parliament is there is no money

to pay them with You are given a fixed salary budget to pay for your staff and there is no money left over for interns and only crumbs to pay expenses How

do you square that circle?

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

Actually, your analysis there is about the grey area of definitions between whether it is volunteering or whether it is an intern or whether it is work For our members, that is a real source of frustration You do not actually know

what you should be looking for, never mind what you are applying for and whatyour rights are around it.

The difference between volunteering and internships, is volunteering is giving your time up for something, perhaps for a good cause or to get some

experience, but with internships there should be a mutually beneficial

relationship between the organisation and the person undertaking that If you are in a volunteer placement and you do not turn up one day, what is the worstthat is going to happen? If you are doing an internship and you do not turn up one day, you are likely to be let go from that internship Those are some of thedifferences there

Andrew Dismore AM: How do you get over this definitional thing where,

realistically they are volunteers, but they insist on being called interns?

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

Maybe that is something to do with the difficulty and frustration of getting into the market or industry you want to go into We heard from the interns

overwhelmingly about how there is a need for experience In one case, it was desirable to have a Master’s degree for an unpaid internship I just think that isreally worrying There is something there about people who are trying to get into an industry needing that experience

Andrew Dismore AM: That is the point They get the experience as a

volunteer, coming and going as they please, doing the jobs that are available

to be done with no fixed hours and getting paid a daily allowance when they doturn up, maybe three days a week To my mind, that is a volunteer However, they insist on being called interns

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

I guess maybe there is something there around employers and employer

recognition of experience and skills when going into recruitment Also, with volunteering, it would generally be expected to be done outside of a regular workday or something Maybe there is a perception there around volunteering

as well It is something that you have done and what else were you doing during that time? With an internship, you would expect to see two, three or even five days a week

Andrew Dismore AM: Going back to what you were saying about the political

world As a politician, when I was an MP, was I better off giving somebody that opportunity on an expenses-only basis, getting them security clearance and getting them into the Westminster village, or not giving them that opportunity

at all?

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

You would be better paying

Andrew Dismore AM: There is no money to pay them.

Tony Arbour AM: It is not a choice He is not offering you one.

Andrew Dismore AM: There is no choice because there is no budget to pay

them with

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

That is really worrying about who you are opening those opportunities up to If you cannot afford to do an unpaid internship, you are then shut out

Andrew Dismore AM: That is not the choice I am faced with It may have

changed now, but going back to when I was an MP, the choice was this: I have

a fixed salary budget That is to pay my fulltime staff or two fulltime staff or whatever That is a fixed budget There is no money to pay for an intern, other than a small amount left over for expenses Am I better off giving an opportunity to somebody who can work as a volunteer on an expenses-only basis to get into the Westminster village, to get security clearance and to have

a really good opportunity of getting a job or not? That is the choice

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

It is really great that you offer opportunities to those people However, if you are only offering that to a certain market or a certain section of society, it is really concerning, particularly in the politics industry There is an opportunity here for politics to really show some leadership on this

Andrew Dismore AM: Yes, but that is the position you are in Your view is

that I do not give anybody the opportunity rather than somebody?

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

It is an either/or situation

Andrew Dismore AM: It is It is exactly the situation we are facing.

Colum McGuire (Vice President (Welfare), National Union of Students):

That is the problem, is it not?

Andrew Dismore AM: It is the problem in our situation.

Tom Copley AM: Any organisation would say that it has only a fixed budget

for staff

Stephen Knight AM (Chair): Presumably any organisation can say it does

not have the budget to pay people Anybody can say that I have to say,

Andrew, I am slightly lost to see you arguing that MPs are uniquely powerless

in terms of setting budgets and everything else Presumably, as MPs, you set your own budgets?

Andrew Dismore AM: Not quite, no.